4,200 (Training, Casey Murray, Greg Bowen)

Today's SWAPA Number is 4,200. That's how many Southwest pilots will retire by 2035. We may have stopped hiring for now, but those 4,200 pilots will need to be replaced and trained. Today we'll be talking with SWAPA President, Captain Casey Murray, and Training and Standards Committee Chair, Captain Greg Bowen, about how things are going in the training environment, what can be better, and what's around the corner. 

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Transcript

Matt McCants (00:03):

Today's SWAPA number is 4,200. That's how many Southwest pilots will retire by 2035. We may have stopped hiring for now, but those 4,200 pilots will need to be replaced and trained. Today we'll be talking with SWAPA president, Captain Casey Murray, and Training and Standards Committee Chair, Captain Greg Bowen about how things are going in the training environment, what can be better, and what's around the corner.

(00:40):

I'm Matt McCants.

Tony Mulhare (00:41):

And I'm Tony Mulhair. And here's our interview with Greg and Casey.

(00:51):

Greg and Casey, you are returning from the World Aviation Training Summit a couple of weeks ago. What can you share with our listeners to give a perspective of this year's summit?

Greg Bowen (01:01):

Well, the focus for the most part was on how to train the generational gaps between older pilots and younger pilots. The way Gen Z's and Gen A's think is different than the way a 50, 55-year-old person thinks. So there were a lot of discussions on how to bridge that gap, and how that impacts the design of training going forward.

Casey Murray (01:27):

And I'll add that all of us, regardless of age change and have changed in the way that we consume education and the way that we consume materials that are provided to us. And so it was interesting to see how my brain has changed as well as how those that are younger and that have been brought up in a different time consume digital media as well.

Matt McCants (01:52):

So it sounds like holistically the conference is recognizing that there are changes in how we learn to fly, whether we've been flying for 30 years professionally or we're just getting into it.

Casey Murray (02:02):

All of us and the way that we consume is different now, and it is now time for the company and all training institutions, but we'll speak to Southwest Airlines to address that as well. We've seen a change in how they provide information to us and they've embraced a fair amount of technology in our training.

(02:24):

Ultimately though, our training curriculum hasn't really changed since we were training pilots with 8,000 hours and a type rating to 16 and 1,700 hours. And we have to make sure that those pilots are set up for success as new hires and are set up for success to fly in the Southwest environment and the Southwest network and set up to really excel in what it is that we do on a day in and day out basis.

Matt McCants (02:52):

So shifting closer to home, Greg, we're making our way through 2024 CQT. What have been some of the takeaways, both from the training center and from the pilots? How is this year's profile going?

Greg Bowen (03:03):

It's gone very well. The failure rate for the LOE is very low. The MO's even lower. The few issues that we've seen have been pilots that didn't embrace the study guide to the level that they needed to, to get past the oral. That's really been the biggest issue.

(03:21):

In terms of the LOE itself. It's actually very good this year. Pilots seem to like it. Some of the few complaints that we've heard haven't been from the pilots receiving it, but it's a little bit more complex for the Check Airmen to administer. So there've been a few complaints in that regard and we're trying to capture that for what's coming next year.

Tony Mulhare (03:40):

Speaking of next year, what do you see coming down the line for our pilots in 2025 in this annual training cycle?

Greg Bowen (03:45):

It's going to be not much different than what you're seeing now. The data drives what's in each year's training, so there's going to be an additional focus on go-arounds, for example, as part of the training. One of the other things that's going to be different for next year is we're coming up on the cycle where if you're an ETOPS pilot, there'll be an ETOPS recurrent at the next day, after the end of the three-day event.

Tony Mulhare (04:09):

What does that training preparation cycle look like? How long does it take from the time the company or the FAA sees a problem either inside of Southwest or inside of the industry before it actually shows up in our...

Greg Bowen (04:21):

It's nowhere near as fast right now, at least for us, where I think it should be. To give you an example, the 2025 recurrent product is built right now, and this is the end of April. So it's in the can now.

(04:37):

The whole purpose of an AQP is to adapt your training, if necessary, more or less on the fly. So there may be some minor tweaks to it between now and the end of the year, but for the most part it's based on last year's data. Right now.

Matt McCants (04:51):

With the news that the hiring has stopped, this obviously opens up some capacity in the training world. What does that trickle-down effect look like for us manning the training center on the instructor side of the house and in the check pilot ranks?

Greg Bowen (05:04):

That's a great question. More specific to the flight instructors, obviously since we're not bringing new hires in right now, we are heavy on flight instructors. But the good news is we're in the process of finishing up initial training under the AQP program, and there's a tremendous amount of training that the instructors have to go through to be qualified to teach in this new program. So company's plan is to take advantage of this law to get all the instructors ready for when we re-engage and start hiring. So that's the current plan.

Matt McCants (05:38):

So the instructor's getting a break with students, but not in their internal training?

Greg Bowen (05:42):

Right. They're going to be going to school essentially to teach this new program.

Tony Mulhare (05:47):

What is Southwest doing from the training perspective, not only to prepare new pilots for the line, but what are they doing to prepare Captains that are used to flying with more seasoned pilots in previous years?

Casey Murray (05:58):

I don't think it's a secret to anybody. All of us that are line pilots out there that have gone through training that whether the new hires or upgrade, our syllabus really hasn't changed.

(06:09):

There have been electronic tools and the company has done a good job of integrating some tools within our EFB to help with training, but the curriculum itself really hasn't changed. And I think we're to a point now where we have to recognize that the experience level that we're hiring is relatively low. The experience level operating in the system and the network that we operate in that is complex has changed. And then on the upgrade side, in both instances that either our new hires or our Captain upgrades are really given the opportunity to succeed in, number one, being prepared for the system that they're operating in with respect to new hires as well as our Captains being trained to be true mentors.

(06:58):

And it's not just technique. Let's use level change instead of vertical speed. How about let's do this. It is a much more in-depth mentoring process that we need to really provide them again, those tools for success. We were discussing this when we're recording this. We're currently in our May board meeting and one of our board members had gone through upgrade, and he said as we were discussing some issues that are currently going on here at Southwest, that they're given no training in any of that.

(07:30):

And so I think we need to take a more proactive approach with our Captains and our Captains need to be a little bit more proactive in mentoring new First Officers. And it's not just technique things, it is more of how the airplane is operated, what expectations are from ATC, from other pilots, as well as on the ground. And I think that holistically, both in the new hire training, we need to see a change as well as within the upgrade.

Greg Bowen (08:02):

I'd like to add that as we move further along in the AQP world, I mentioned earlier here in the podcast that starting this year, our new hire training program or initial will be under AQP. It's a greatly updated design from what our pilots have ever experienced here. And it is much better training, especially for someone that starts out with a lower level of experience, because it's more comprehensive. It's delivered in an integrated approach. So a higher level of retention occurs during that process.

(08:32):

And I've said all that to say this, when we bring the Captain upgrade program online under AQP after the first of next year, it will not be unusual for a Captain that's upgrading when he goes through the simulator course, he's sim partners of new hire. So that's going to require some teaching in the curriculum for the new Captain. It's not going to affect holistic change overnight, but you've got to start, right? So the idea being if you're training with a brand new pilot, you're going to learn what you need to be paying attention to, to be successful in the curriculum. So that's going to change a lot.

Matt McCants (09:12):

Yeah, it sounds like both seats need some kind of change in training with all the other airlines seem to pull from the same kind of experience pools with just the way the market is right now. What are they doing differently than the company as far as training for success?

Greg Bowen (09:27):

Well, for one, with the exception of Southwest Airlines, we're the only major airline domestically that doesn't train initial pilots under AQP. So their training program is further advanced than ours. And frankly, the IOE or initial experience after training looks a little different than what we do here. It's more comprehensive and typically longer.

Matt McCants (09:53):

It sounds like we know that something needs to move, but what are we doing? What are those conversations sounding like with a company to help move those conversations forward?

Greg Bowen (10:02):

We've been having discussions with the company where if you identify certain subset of new hires that are below certain thresholds in terms of experience, total time, jet time, background in previous aircraft flown, et cetera, that we have a Captain, if you want to call it a mentor program or extended IOE. It doesn't really matter what you call it, but the idea being for that new pilot's first three months or so, depending on where they fall in the demographic, you don't think in terms of a 25 hour IOE, they fly with somebody that's trained to mentor and educate these new pilots over a broader period of time than what we currently do.

Tony Mulhare (10:45):

So one of the things that we need to be careful of as we talk about new hires is to make sure that we don't make them feel bad that they're not as experienced as someone was 10 or 15 years ago when they got hired here at Southwest. That's not their fault. That is just where the industry is right now.

(11:03):

But the company needs to address those changes in a way that doesn't make the new hire feel they are the one that is under the spotlight for their lack of experience. We have to be able to take that pressure off of them and they just need to be getting the training that they need. Casey, what do you have for that?

Casey Murray (11:22):

And I want to be a hundred percent clear here. We've talked up to now a little bit and when we've talked about new hires and we've talked about Captains and it is not a failure of one or the other. This is a training issue that needs to be addressed. If you want to talk Southwest, you want to talk the golden rule, all of our pilots need to be set up for success, and that fundamentally has to occur.

(11:43):

Two years ago, almost to the day when Southwest lowered their minimums. The statement that was released is, and I can almost quote it because I've quoted it to leadership without exaggeration a hundred times, but what was said was we're lowering our minimums, but we're not changing our standards and we're not changing our training. What we will do is make sure they are trained up to what the standard is.

(12:08):

And to me that's fundamentally flawed. Again, you have to set them up for success. And as I started out this podcast, our training really hasn't changed with footprint or how we are addressing the lowering of experience to provide the tools for success for all of our new hires regardless of experience and regardless of age. So it's not an age, it's really not an experience issue. We have to set up for success as well as our Captains in upgrade.

(12:41):

The program itself has to change to address the new realities. I mean, so much has changed. Our network has changed. The air traffic control system has changed. The tools that we use in the airplane have changed. I mean, just look at whether we're talking audiobooks, whether we're talking SkyPath, whatever it is, auto throttles. I mean just everything has changed, but yet our training really hasn't adopted a different level of training to really address that.

(13:12):

Our pilots are the best 737 pilots in the world, bar none, but I believe the onus is on the company to make sure that they're set up for success from the moment they step on property till the moment they retire. That includes upgrade training, it includes recurrent training, and it's going to include anything additional that comes down the line. And we're going to see some other things coming down the line due to some of these, I will say training deficiencies. Greg just spoke to some of them, and when I say deficiencies, I don't mean pilots. I mean more of the training that is being received.

Matt McCants (13:47):

Now you guys have both said something that's very important is that everybody who ends up here, we want to keep them here. So we've seen across the channels that there have been some pilots who have completed IOE but still feel like they would like some additional training. What's some good words of advice for those pilots that are out there?

Greg Bowen (14:03):

Well, first of all, that's not a knock on your proficiency, talent or experience when you're in a new environment, some things, the old saying is "You don't know what you don't know until you get out there and discover what it is you don't know." That's human nature.

(14:18):

Under the AQP, there's a provision there where any pilot can walk into the Chief Pilot's office and request additional training. It's not a checkride. Once they do that, they get CC pulled, Training Center reaches out. Somebody from SWAPA Training and Standards is in the debriefing with them to try to determine what it is that they want and need. And then we put a training program together. It may just be additional LX instruction with a Check Airman. It could be, if it's something that we can help strengthen it with simulation, we'll bring them to Dallas and give them additional sim time for what the issue may be, or what they think their issue is. And then they go out and fly with the Check Airmen and then they go back to the line. That's a tool that we should use a lot more than we have been, the company even to start to socialize to our pilot group from their side that this is available.

Matt McCants (15:13):

Sure, and it sounds like there's a lot of options on the table.

Greg Bowen (15:15):

Sure it is. And it's not punitive.

Tony Mulhare (15:17):

And have we seen much success with that?

Greg Bowen (15:19):

Yes. Everybody that has done that to date is out flying the line.

Matt McCants (15:26):

So let's put the shoe on the other foot. I'm a Captain. I'm flying with a First Officer that maybe has even told me that they're having a little bit of trouble or they're struggling, and as good Captains and people that we want to take care of, what are some of the options that are on the Captain's plate when you have an experience like this?

Greg Bowen (15:44):

A couple actually, preferred options, if you will. They could call me and I'll talk to the pilot, figure out what's going on, and if he needs additional training, I'll provide guidance on how to get that.

(15:55):

The other option is called Pro Standards. Pro Standards are sorted out to make sure that it's not a personality issue that's the problem. If it's identified that the gentleman or lady that Captain called about could benefit from extra training, then Pro Standards is going to call me and I'm going to call the pilot and help him get some extra training that I described earlier.

Tony Mulhare (16:17):

So Greg, let's say I don't do what Matt suggests and go through SWAPA and I go directly into a chief pilot's office to tell the chief pilot that a new hire that I've recently flown with is struggling on the line. What are the potential ramifications of that scenario?

Greg Bowen (16:33):

Well, there's a couple. One, the ramification would end in a good way, and the other direction that the chief pilot's office could go is they could decide to order flying under supervision for the pilot in question. That's a jeopardy event. If they do that, then they could end up with a failure from flying under supervision, still going to get retrained, but now you've got a failure in their record, which is reportable on the pilot records database, et cetera.

(16:59):

So the preferred method is to avoid flying under supervision because it really doesn't help anybody. It doesn't. Like I said, if they fail it, they're still going to get retrained. So let's cut out that first part. And the best way to do that is either go in and ask for additional training or if it's the Captain that's making the complaint, then preferably contact Pro Standards, which will get it routed and handled in the appropriate manner so that you're not doing undue harm, if you will.

Matt McCants (17:30):

So Casey, many of our Captains feel like the company is asking them to go above and beyond mentoring and kind of instruct. Now there's some gray area here for sure, but where is that sitting with the pilot group?

Casey Murray (17:42):

I think it's important that the company needs to identify and own the fact that doing the same way that we've always done things is no longer going to work. Again, I can't say the term setting up for success enough. Our new hires need to be provided with all the tools to get online and to be successful and not have to stress over what their performance is like, or not like.

(18:10):

I think the same can be said for our upgrade and recurrent trainings that go on to provide our Captains with the tools necessary to really understand that, hey, there are techniques and there's mentoring, but also they shouldn't be crossing a line over to instructing. And number one, our Captain shouldn't be put in that place. And again, that's on training. And then have the tools if they are put in that place. As Greg said, we've talked about the best things to do for our Captains. As I always say, call SWAPA first and train and continue to train our Captains on. Let's go out there and let's be mentors, but let's also not cross over into instructing. And that's key.

Tony Mulhare (18:55):

Greg. Shifting gears again, let's talk implementation. How has the training center been with implementing the items from the CBA that we ratified in January?

Greg Bowen (19:04):

Well, the three big pieces in the new contract for us and our world is the change to a vetted system for your training, which is on the implementation schedule a little bit later on. So we haven't dealt with that yet.

(19:18):

The other significant big change is the RBFs and the bulletins. There's now a requirement for compensation if an RBF or a flight ops bulletin requires more than 10 minutes to digest what's in it. So part of our responsibility at SWAPA and the Training Standards committee is we have to review all those bulletins ahead of time. Now, time them, call out any new content that's in them because that's what the pay is based on, and then certify the bulletin for what it's going to pay our pilots. So they've been very cooperative with that so far.

(19:55):

In fact, today's date, they're getting ready to drop a bulletin for AvioBooks, that before the conversation started with, here's a bulletin, we know that this involves pay, so we'll get it to you in the appropriate amount of time to time it before it's put out. So I would say overall so far, pretty good.

Matt McCants (20:14):

Case, we'll leave the final award with you. These are not fun things to talk about, right? There's a lot going on here, but they are not going to go away on their own. Does SWAPA have a position on all the things we've discussed here and where does it ultimately land?

Casey Murray (20:31):

It's a great question, and we are, as an enterprise, Southwest Airlines, lucky that there has been this pause because it gives us time to look at what can we do better in training and how can we set all of our pilots up for success. But I think it's utterly important to understand that this lull is going to end.

(20:52):

Over the next decade, 40% of our pilots are going to retire, and the numbers at Delta, American, and United are 50 to 60% of their pilots are going to turn over in the same time. The shortage is there and it's going to continue. We do have a lull and we need to take advantage of that lull and revamp and set all of our pilots up to succeed. We started off this conversation and you addressed the World Aviation Training Summit that we were at last week, and there was a slide that really caught my attention.

(21:22):

They said that we're going to be 286,000 pilots short, over again that same time period through the end of this decade. So we're going to continue to face the same issues that we faced with recruiting and retaining pilots, and also we're going to compete for, I would even argue an even more limited pool than we saw last year and the year before. So with that being said, these are issues that weren't unique to the last couple years. They're going to become the norm, and it's going to be best if we can partner with Southwest and figure out what is the best way to make sure that our pilots are trained adequately and not only adequately, but are given all the tools that are out there, all the tools that we've seen, and that we utilize those tools as well as the curriculum that sets our pilots up.

Tony Mulhare (22:18):

We'd like to thank Greg and Casey for taking the time to speak with us today. As always, if you have feedback for us or a topic request for a future podcast, please reach out to us at comm@swapa.org. We really do want to hear from you.

(22:33):

And finally, today's bonus number is 286,000. That's the number that the world Aviation Training Summit forecasts as the need for pilots across the airline industry worldwide in the next decade.